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Since I work in a residential setting providing psychotherapy services to those in the "at risk" category, my company is offering both the "regular" flu vaccine as well as the H1N1 vaccine. I've read supporting evidence on both sides of the vaccine debate and am currently non-commital although I lean towards getting both vaccinations (they are free for state contracted agency employees).
Who here plans on getting the new flu shot? Anybody convinced about the "dangers" of such vaccinations?
Who here plans on getting the new flu shot? Anybody convinced about the "dangers" of such vaccinations?
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Tue, September 29, 2009 - 1:56 PMJust heard that the Canadians did a study showing people who got the regular flu shot are half as resistant to the H1N1. Whether getting both will cancel that out, have no idea. Cheers to everyone's health!
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Tue, September 29, 2009 - 5:15 PM
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Tue, September 29, 2009 - 11:22 PM> Who here plans on getting the new flu shot? Anybody convinced about the "dangers" of such vaccinations?
I got a flu shot for a few years there when the kids were growing into their immune systems and were sick all the time. Skipped it last year and probably will this year. I'm busy and there's no convenient place for me to get one or I would probably do it.
I think my kids have had 24 fever reactions from the shot, but I'm far from convinced of any dangers from the vaccinne. Vaccine phobia seems a bit kooky to me.
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Sun, October 4, 2009 - 8:01 PMAnybody convinced about the "dangers" of such vaccinations?
Great question Hank and one I've been pondering myself. Convinced? No, definately not, but given the track history of vaccines(like the 1976 flu vaccine for one), I am a bit weary of it. I normally do get the regular flu shot but I don't think I'll get the H1N1 vaccine. I also think the tragic story of the 22 year olds death from it speaks more to the health care crisis in our country...not so much about the danger of getting vaccines(or not).
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 4:44 AM -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 10:32 AMc'mon, surely the whole vaccine thing is just a big sham -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 10:51 AMrob, do you mean the vaccines are a scam, or the distrust of the vaccines is a scam? -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 1:42 PMthe vaccines . . - and i like to think i am no credulous liberal airhead conspiracy-theory nut . . -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 1:48 PMI lean towards your way of thinking after seeing and hearing what I've seen and heard about the pharmaceutical companies behind this whole thing, rob. I don't think it's airheaded at all, but I try and avoid getting in debates with folks who stick their arms out for anything the TV tells them to get a shot for. They have all the "credible" studies to back them up, so I just let Darwin's theory work it's magic. -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 2:55 PMMaybe the so-called swine flu (American Excess, don't leave home without it!) was manmade for the financial leverage it can create if 200-plus million frightened people fork out $25 a pop for the antidote, I mean, vaccine. -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 3:30 PMYea, thats pretty much what I've heard
I have a friend who studied biochemistry and all related stuff for many years at university and she showed me a video by that horowitz guy (who can be a bit of a nut, also) and confirmed a lot of truth in what he has been saying - that given the molecular structure of swine flu - it's not possible that it could have been a naturally occurring thing and it was obviously a man-made hybrid of existing flus (avian etc) produced in laboratories. he then explains a lot about the economic details of creating a virus, spreading it, massively exaggerating it's potential threat, then stabilizing a financial crisis by fooling the masses into buying a dodgy vaccine of it for a standardized price.
Aside from that - yes it may still be a threat and yes perhaps the vaccine itself is valid - but considering a lot of people are saying it might be dangerous - 'fuck that' are the two words that immediately spring to mind.
I'm really not that concerned about the flu and actually like getting a bit sick from time to time so wouldn't care much if i did happen to get it - I had the flu for 2 weeks around the time when a lot of people around me were getting supposed swine flu so perhaps I had it anyway. -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 5:09 PMAll I know is that if I see clear evidence of mandatory vaccinations, I am going underground.
You couldn't pay me to take that shot.
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 6:21 PMa vaccine that stabilized a financial crisis? i don't even know how to respond to that.
didn't wilson write a whole book on "naturally occurring?" if it happened, it was natural, right? we are still a part of nature, right? right? (or did I miss a memo.)
perhaps i give the benefit of doubt too much, but it's hard enough to create a vaccine, much less a super-virus AND a vaccine to go along with it.. however, with the industrialization of the third world, over crowding, and unsanitary conditions, it seems perfectly plausible to me that some funky mutated virus would spring out of the pig slop.
honestly, i could give a crap either way, but this thread reminds me of the paranoid muslim clergy of north africa who stalled the eradication of polio from the face of the planet because they told their people not to take the vaccine because it was a mind control device from the evil whites.
just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.
/rant.
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 6:42 PM -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 6:54 PMre. <"All I know is that if I see clear evidence of mandatory vaccinations, I am going underground. You couldn't pay me to take that shot. >
Here Here.
www.naturemoms.com/blog/200...a-senate/
This Massachusetts Bill = scary shit.
But, I must agree with Quack, not that anybody should give a shit, but I find it hard to swallow that its some carefully orchestrated illuminati agenda.
I easily believe, however, that the whole fire has been heavily fanned and gasoline thrown on it by the mainstream media and the Glen Beck supporting, Flag-Toting, 45-Caliber Jesus shooting Tea-Baggin' radical right in order to boost television ratings and instill fear into the hearts of the masses.
(www.indecisionforever.com/2009/...ters/)
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Tue, October 6, 2009 - 1:01 AMQuack,
What I was referring to was the study of the H1N1 molecular structure by cell-biologists who are claiming that such a molecular structure is very unlikely to spring up from such pig slop (naturally occuring) - and that it must have in fact been created in laboratories by humans. Granted - humans are part of nature, but that is clearly not the issue here.
Added to that - the vaccine was reasonably easy and to make and produce and as such, given the treacherous nature of the pharmeceutical industry (must i go into that?) is now perfectly plausible that it is actually a huge global economic scam.
I appreciate your point about polio in North Africa. In any case, as I said before, I am no conspiracy nut and do not hold certainty over anything i say here however - theres no fucking way i'm taking that vaccine for something as stupid as this. it was talked and talked about and then it was revealed that getting normal flu would be worse that getting swine flu. ridiculous -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Wed, October 7, 2009 - 10:10 AMI'd like to see independent research on the origins of the piggy flu. Then I'd like to see who sponsored the research that elevated the H1N1 vaccine to the status of "preventive medicine". I agree with Rob, I don' t see the medical epidemic with the flu itself, it's more like the media are trying to pull a fast one on the uninformed, or shall I say "ill-informed" public.
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Wed, October 7, 2009 - 6:01 PMthe pharma industry lives for profits just like any other industry and i can buy into the notion that vaccine is half assed and rushed through and made to maximize profit and not all that effective. i can buy into the notion that the regulators rushed approval for the benefit of the pharma industry and to make a show of public good will and all.... yeah, that's all fair game.
but the notion that the H1N1 virus itself was created by the pharma industry so they could profit off a vaccine. sorry, i find that completely laughable. of course since this is a wilson group, I'll give it a 1 on a maybelogic scale of 0-10. The manufacturers of the vaccine are going to make a buck, sure, but the notion that a vaccine, any vaccine is somehow going to make a dent in a global economic downturn - i'll give that a big fat zero. -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Wed, October 7, 2009 - 6:08 PM"but the notion that the H1N1 virus itself was created by the pharma industry so they could profit off a vaccine. "
what if the pharma industry is in bed with the feds? -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Wed, October 7, 2009 - 7:27 PMof course they are, but what of it?
to be more specific, the amount of time, money, energy, know how, and cover up required to R&D a brand spanking new flu virus.... it just doesn't make any sense to me at all, at all. I don't buy it.
i do, as i mentioned, feel that the current conditions on the planet of the apes do lend themselves to some weird ass mutations and it doesn't surprise me to see a weird ass flu virus like bird flu or swine flu. something that nobody expects. spontaneous, rapid mutation. punctuated equilibrium - rapid unexpected change. and yeah, pharma is going to try to profit off that. no doubt. that's what they do.
And it doesn't surprise me that surprise me that such viruses look really damn strange. They are weird ass mutations. That's why they're so harmful is that they are something so unusual and different that our immune systems react strongly because we as a species don't have any tolerance for the weird and different new strain of virus.
but then you have some ultra paranoid nut job who is hell bent on scaring the shit out of himself and he sees the new and different and it maps to his reality tunnel as "holy shit, the military-industrial complex is out to get us again. they MADE this" congratulations buddy, you've just overlayed a little bit of reality to your dominant ultra-paranoid reality tunnel and scared the shit out of yourself once again. but hey, the mystery is solved, mission accomplished - no need for uncertainty, because he *knows* who did it and why.
and maybe THEY did. what the fuck do I know. but I find it highly unlikely to the point of being downright silly. now pardon me while I slip back into my own little cozy cocoon. -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 12:51 AMThat was a very volatile post, Quack. I accept what you've said here, and 'buy' into the things that you buy into. As I explained, I'm not saying this with any certainty, nor do I really care about it, and am not normally interested in conspiracy theory or the like - i find most of it, like paranoia, to be a frightful bore. However, it was interesting to hear the perspective of scientists saying about it's unlikely nature and possible man-made origins - and in all honesty, it doesn't seem completely unlikely to me - but nor does it seem likely.
You are the one who has projected the paranoid formula over this - I am not paranoid but it is common-place knowledge that corporations and military/industrial/pharmeceutical industries regularly do shit like this. The point is that surely the vaccine is a sham - when swine flu finally hit australia here it was revealed that it wasn't a threat at all. so why the vaccine? why all the suspicious behaviour?
i dunno. don't really care either. i'm not taking the vaccine -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 10:24 AM> but it is common-place knowledge that corporations and military/industrial/pharmeceutical industries regularly do shit like this.
for the sake of good clean discussion, could you clarify what you mean by "shit like this." I'm not sure if we're talking about designer viruses, sham(e) vaccines, or mass manipulation via the media.
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 1:51 PM>>>the amount of time, money, energy, know how, and cover up required to R&D a brand spanking new flu virus.... it just doesn't make any sense to me at all, at all. I don't buy it.
Really? Come now. You don't think the government puts some serious R&D money into biological weapons, research, etc?
Thoughts on the researcher doc who died of the plague?
www.nytimes.com/2009/09/22...hicago.html -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 11:15 PM> Really? Come now. You don't think the government puts some serious R&D money into biological weapons, research, etc?
I considered that angle, but it put a serious damper on my attempts to stir up trouble.
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 7:58 AMI don't get any of the conspiracy theories over this at all. if big pharma is just trying to make a fast buck with this swine flu vaccine, then why release a vaccine that could possibly kill or cripple people? why not just release a placebo vaccine of sorts? a placebo would be cheaper for them to produce and have absolutely zero side effects resulting in bad press.
that said, I'm happy to see some discussion weighing both sides of this vaccine. the rest of the interweb seems to be full of extreme cranks declaring absolutes on both sides; which is in credibly frustrating to someone attempting some kind of critical thought.
I tend to get the yearly flu shot when and if I remember, and when and if I'm around a cheap or free shot. this year, the company I work for is providing it, so I will get one (as I have to young'uns at home, and I don't want to be 1) spreading anything to them, 2) getting anything from them, or 3) being laid up for 2 weeks and unable to help out at home!
I'm on the fence about the H1N1 vaccine still. -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 8:10 AMCheers to your health, greg, and to your family's health!
I've seen compelling evidence that the H1N1 is indeed a manmade virus, but that doesn't mean I "believe" it. I'm biased against corporate greed from the start, and so Quack comes in with level-headed skepticism in the spirit of RAW.
That being said, I never get flu shots and I never get the flu, and I won't be getting the H1N1 vaccine. If I had a family, I might have more reasons to rethink this position and dig deeper. -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 8:11 AMThis might be of interest: trendsupdates.com/seasonal-...-for-h1n1/ -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 9:18 AMthanks for the link! that has me re-thinking the whole thing yet again!
before I had kids, I rarely got the flu vaccine and I don't think I've had a real case of the flu in 20 years. so who knows? that might be my luck, good genes or any other random factor. based on my own experience, I don't feel that I have any answers at all!
man, I gotta stop reading this wilson guy! I can never say anything but "maybe" anymore... -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 9:48 AM"man, I gotta stop reading this wilson guy! I can never say anything but "maybe" anymore... "
It's a good thing IMO. It seems that by reframing ones thoughts within maybe-probablilities instead of yes/no either/or logic my brain gets a good amount of healthy exercise. In a lot of ways it seems to keep the brain young and fresh, like a Summer's Eve commercial.
I should also mention that I'm sort of looney, in that I would purposefully hang out with people with the flu just to give my immune system the practice: if it makes me sick, I'll be stronger for it thereafter; if it doesn't, my immune system still got some exercise in fighting off illness. If I had kids, I don't know if I'd go that route, but I'm inclined to think that I'd be doing them a disservice if I tried to protect them from every passing flu. The people around today are the result of thousands of generations of natural selection, the smartest and the strongest, (scary, huh?). Only in the last 100 years have we begun to interfere with this process with innoculations and anti-bacterial products, and it seems to me that such practices are only making the diseases themselves stronger. -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 10:26 AMI find that the mechanisms of 'maybe logic' or non-Aristotelian logic in general run their natural course if you trust a basic sense of conscience and reason - I found myself getting in the trap after heavy periods of RAW-exposure of thinking that in order for someone to be sane they have to have heard of RAW or Korsybski. RAW was an aweful head-noodler - I go in reading him for semantic fitness exercises from time to time but like a Gym - I wouldn't want to hang out there all day. Most of muscle-building takes place during sleep or during the day - as the body naturally responds to the exercise in its own time.
I also have the same attitude to illness - bring it on, whatever kills me will only make me stronger. This may be due to my early 20s naivety though. I like getting sick anyway
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 10:26 AM> I would purposefully hang out with people with the flu just to give my immune system the practice: if it makes me sick, I'll be stronger for it thereafter; if it doesn't, my immune system still got some exercise in fighting off illness. If I had kids, I don't know if I'd go that route
if you had kids, you wouldn't have to go that route. your kids bring the bugs to you. -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 10:42 AM"if you had kids, you wouldn't have to go that route. your kids bring the bugs to you."
Another reason for me to be fruitful and multiply, lol... -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 10:57 AMafter i got strep throat for the 6th time in 2 years, i had my tonsils pulled at the age of 35. i spent nearly a month on my couch drinking vicodin syrup, watching movies, and taking naps. i didn't seem very cool at the time, but i think the tonsilectomy opened my 5th chakra. -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 11:00 AMOuch! I heard getting your tonsils out after age 20 is a thousand times more painful, as vicodin syrup seems to indicate.
5th is the throat chakra, right?
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 12:41 PMI was definitely kidding with my "maybe" comment, and totally agree with what you said and RAW's theory on it, etc.
that's interesting about hanging out with flu victims to boost your immune system. when I lived in nyc, a native new yorker friend of mine used to insist that the more of the city he touched, the less sick he got; because that kept his immune system going. this came up when I noticed him laughing at people avoiding to use things like the hand railings on the subway stairs. as long as I've known him, he hasn't been sick any more or less than anyone else I know. I've never taken his practices that far, but I certainly try not to get my panties in a twist over touching things in public. who knows if it works or not? if anything, it's made me think more about things like that in our culture, and how overly clean we are, etc. -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 7:43 PMg'reg > that's interesting about hanging out with flu victims to boost your immune system.
Carlin had a bit on this. He never got sick 'cuz he grew up swimming in the Hudson river.
rob giri, FWIW, I wasn't projecting the paranoid formula onto you specifically. Art Bell, Whitley Streiber, and the gentleman you mentioned came to mind, but specifically, i was thinking of a guy who used to frequent the MLA back in the day...
strawman, thank you, thank you very much...
During this thread, I kept thinking, yeah... but the government, there's a lot of money that's going *somewhere*. I was chatting with Hank Billings last week and I had to agree that it always leaves a possibility.
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"An absolute church always produces an absolute opposition."
- Robert Anton Wilson, _The Earth Will Shake_ -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 11:24 AMnot just the money.
Follow the power.
Follow the control.
Watching herds of people queue up for this shot while saying "I'm getting it because everyone else is getting it" and follower mentalities like that are the true causes for my alarm.
This may not be the one, but mark my words, it's coming. -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Wed, October 21, 2009 - 12:33 PM -
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Those crazy Fins
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 4:30 AMSpeaking about Finland....
Check this out: www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/10...ts/index.html
That's some ahead-of-the-curve-ass-shit
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Re: Those crazy Fins
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 8:41 AMsmart people, them finns
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 1:43 PMFirst problem with this discussion is people assuming there are two sides, which is exactly what THEY want you to believe.
Let's rule out the 2 extreme options - that pharma created swine flu, and that there is enough cause to worry about a FLU that there's whispers of mandatory vaccinations. Option 3: something else is in the vaccine (I could speculate on what for pages. What can one expect from a government that puts fluoride in public water for the good of our teeth?). Option 4: It's just another step to increase fear and exercise control over the people for a smooth entry into the NWO (whatever that is). Why are we all panicking over a flu, again? The regular flu kills thousands every year but I don't hear anything about vaccinating everyone against it.
I think the real answer is a lot more complicated than any of these, and may include more than one. -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 11:29 PM> Why are we all panicking over a flu, again?
It's a new flu and people like to panic. The evening news is a panic just looking for a story to support it. Low grade chronic emergency.
anyhow, for further reading I suggest we all go to the conspiracy digest interview in The Illuminati Papers. -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 12:31 PM<The evening news is a panic just looking for a story to support it. Low grade chronic emergency. >
Fnord!
People say time=money, but fear=big money and war=biggest money
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 1:13 PMCD: I seem to detect what I term "virulent skepticism" in your views.
Wilson: Why, thank you very much.
quack, you do RAW honors in upholding the same level of skepticism.
Alas, I have some experience and knowledge that informs me on this vaccine issue that anyone hearing my full-blown views (acknowledged to be 90% my creation, of course) secondhand from that knowledge is 99% likely to consider me a paranoid madman. -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 1:45 PMI think I suffer from strawman's syndrome as well... -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 10:48 PMI've decided to not get any flu vaccinations including the H1N1. -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 1:06 PM> I've decided to not get any flu vaccinations including the H1N1.
c'mon, everyone's doin' it. -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 6:55 PM>c'mon, everyone's doin' it.
Yeah and the supply is limited....first come first serve. Better to get it then to not and wish you had -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 3:24 AM">c'mon, everyone's doin' it.
Yeah and the supply is limited....first come first serve. Better to get it then to not and wish you had "
Brilliant marketing, ain't it? Wicked, but brilliant...
Oops, my insane paranoid delusions are showing!
*blush* -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 9:19 PMMy partner and I decided we would reserve judgment on this vaccine issue until October. Here it's October and I called it.
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...61.html
Hope they've got internet where I'm going, otherwise, see you on the flipside.
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 6:08 AMHmmmm... I am not sure that vaccines are all that effective, and fairly sure that ANY medical concoction that one takes into one's body has the potential for a myriad of side effects.
There is evidence, for example, to suggest that the HIV virus got into Hepatitis vaccinations manufactured by Merck from monkeys that were experimented upon by the DOD, and that this was the origin of HIV in the human population. Scary. Also, various other viruses have been found to be present in vaccines.
Regardless, I can tell you this much.... The odds of a side effect to a vaccine of some sort (headaches, fever, dizziness, vomiting, nausea, allergy, Guillain-Barré, etc) are fairly high...something like 1 in 20. The odds of getting the H1N1 flu are in the thousands. The odds of dying of H1N1 are in the tens or hundreds of thousands.
I'll take my risks of not taking the vaccine.
I also know that I have a strong immune system. I take care of myself fairly well. I wash my hands after using the restroom and before eating. I don't touch doorknobs or handles in public places with my hands (I open/close them with my elbows, knees or feet if possible). I eat a decent diet. I exercise daily. I rarely get sick, even when exposed. When exposed, I load up on Vitamin C, echinacea and colloidal silver. That usually makes it go away before it really starts. This is all the medicine I've needed over the last 20 years. Side effects? Not a one.
I don't trust pharmaceutical companies one bit. These are the same idiots who push anti-depressants on us. Drugs that have a list of side-effects a mile long, which include impotence. All the while, there is Tryptophan, 5-HTP, and St. John's Wort, all of which do a better job (through independent research not funded by drug manufacturers), with virtually no side-effects. Meanwhile, a meta analysis of research into SSRIs shows that they do not function at all, except for the most dire of cases of depression. In other words, they've dosed an entire generation of people for no real reason with drugs that inhibit their sex drives, amongst other horrible side-effects. I smell a rat. I don't trust them.
I trust medicine that's been around since ancient times and works...as is now being proven by recent scientific research. I don't trust mega-corporations at all. They're in it to turn a buck, not to help anyone. -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 6:53 AM -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 9:56 AM -
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UH OH here comes the shit storm
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 12:04 PM
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 2:02 PM"The Federal Food and Drug Administration has done one nice thing. They have tested every single drug in the United States against placebos. That means that we know more about placebos than anything. I decided to put out a product called "Placebo" because, as a graduate student, I had to find all of the studies that had been conducted using aspirin for headaches versus placebos. I discovered that 7 out of 8 times, the placebo will work as well as aspirin. I wanted to include a booklet that showed all the research and would say, "7 out of 8 times it works as well as aspirin. Take 9, just to be sure."
The Federal Food and Drug Administration decided that I should not put this product on the market, even though they were sugar tablets. They said it would only work if people were deceived. In other words, if you looked at it and said, "There's nothing in there," it wouldn't cure your headache. They actually worked quite well. People would say, "I took nine and it was gone." It isn't deceit that makes it work. It's belief."
- Richard Bandler
From this article:
www.openexchange.org/archive...ler.html -
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Re: H1N1 vaccine
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 2:16 PMre: bandler
LOL
Not sure this story actually happened, but it gets my laughs either way! Thanks for the link; I plan to read it later when I have a chance.
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